Let’s Talk About Women in Engineering
Karolina Kudelina and Olga Vovk are PhD students at TalTech and also chairs of the Estonian section of the international organization IEEE Women in Engineering. The organization is called to inspire, educate and empower women in the field. But do women in tech still require extra support? And overall how favorable is the situation for women in Estonian academia? As well as who serves as an example for the girls themselves? The answers to these and other questions are In the interview with Karolina and Olga.
What does IEEE Women in Engineering stands for?
Karolina: IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers) is a huge international organization dedicated to engineering. There is a conference organized by IEEE, where one can publish, and a large library of works one can find. And then, there is a specific section called IEEE Women in Engineering functioning along the same lines but with the focus on inspiring women to follow their interests in engineering, research and academia.
Olga: The main goals of the organization are indeed inspiration and education. We have already organized one seminar focusing on women — covering the situation in technology and specifically in engineering. IEEE women in engineering has already been in Estonia for some years, but it hasn’t been that active, so out task as for now is to change that and engage more people. It will definitely be our next priority, so we are actively planning more webinars and events.
How have you found your way to the organization?
Karolina: IEEE was already known to me when I became a part of the community. I joined as a member and started publishing our research works with IEEE, but then I started thinking how I could positively contribute to the organization. Luckily, there came an opportunity to become a part of the management in Estonian section. Why not? I have a lot of ideas as for what we can do and how we can promote the field to the public.
Olga: My story is quite similar, I have already been a student-member of IEEE. I didn’t submit my own publications but I was reading articles from the organization, so it was not specifically new for me either. And when the opportunity came by I thought that I definitely can contribute and share my experience.
Do women in tech still need to be supported?
Karolina: There are many reasons why we are doing this, one of which is stereotypes. In the beginning of someone’s career, people’s opinion, positive or negative, can play a significant role. According to statistics, women are twice as likely to leave their job because of some opinion or stereotypical thinking as men are. Women can be talented, but not always brave enough. They may think engineering is not a place for them. For example, me, I’m studying electrical engineering, and many people will think it is a typical man’s job, as they will immediately think of a power station or a mining. So, some people would think I am not suitable, but that’s not true. Actually, electrical engineering is a wide and broad topic.
Olga: In our webinar we were also discussing stereotypes among other issues. In my case stereotypes are not exactly the case, because in my field, Digital Health there are more women than men. At the same time I’m currently doing a PhD, where I am the only female student for some reason.
We were also talking about acceptance. For instance in the situation where me and my male business-partner are attending a professional event where there’s going to be an after party people will feel more comfortable to invite him as a man. Thus, there is still a serious room for improvement in social communication, for instance in making people stop thinking about us as women and instead start considering us as professionals.
Our missions is also to provide the information to the men that they should treat us as equal, but also to women that we should think of ourselves as equal, because sometimes it is the case that we underestimate ourselves and we don’t think serious about ourselves.
How do you see the situation for women in academia in Estonia in comparison to other countries?
Karolina: We have different experience with Olga in this regard. Thus, I have studied and worked almost my whole life in Estonia. From my point of view, the situation here is pretty good and, actually, statistics supports me. There are not so many stereotypes, a lot of women occupy managerial positions, work in engineering and research. Yes, in my specific field of electrical engineering there are significantly less women. Still, my colleagues are very positive about this and I didn’t experience any negative attitude from their side.
Olga: We indeed looked into statistics, and for instance when it comes to “women in science”, which includes all sciences and no only engineering, about 53% of scientists in Estonia are women, so basically even slightly more women than men.
I would also say that I had quite a positive experience in Estonia. I don’t think I can point out the situations where someone was unfair to me as a woman. But the thing is that sometimes we don’t know about those cases, they are not always so obvious. For example, I was applying for a job and being rejected for quite some time, so my assumption was that I was probably not qualified enough for the job, or my qualification is different from what is asked, but actually I don’t know the specific background.
At the same time, in Ukraine, my country of origin, a few years ago it would be an absolutely normal question to a woman during the job interview if she is married and if she is planning to have kids — absolutely inappropriate in business communication. I hope something has changed by now. Ideally, the questions for both genders should be at least the same.
Have you ever witnessed or experienced prejudice or discrimination based on sex or gender, especially against women and girls?
Karolina: Last month, I have experienced a situation of harassment. Thankfully, it has been solved by now. To my surprise though, I have received a message from another girl who had a very similar issue with the same person. I was just very surprised and angry at the same time about that happening. But I also very happy to help her, because I know how it feels. I was thinking that we need to talk more about the relationships between colleagues at the university. It is not a fairytale, it is life.
Olga: I was shocked about Karolina’s story, because up to this point I thought it was something from Hollywood movies and not something happening right here. So I think first of all we need to have more information in this regard. Because I don’t think harassment always happens intentionally, meaning often times those causing it may not realize they are doing something wrong. Therefore, we need to draw the line as for what is okay and what is not for both genders.
And another thing from the victim’s point of view in this situation is the lack of the information about what you can do and who you can contact. Say, If it would happen to me I would have no idea where to go and how to treat it. Of course, it’s best to prevent such situations from happening altogether but if they do happen we need to know what are the steps to take.
Karolina: That was also my thought that we don’t have instructions of how to act. Many women are not talking about it because they are afraid, or don’t know how to act and what to do. So maybe we don’t even have the full picture of what is going on. As my colleague from IEEE put it: “if you are not going to talk about it nobody will”.
Who inspires and empowers you?
Karolina: I am fascinated with every woman who enjoys her field, topic and research, who is doing her job and going forward regardless someone else’s opinions.
Having said that I have received a really great support from my parents. My dad is an electrical engineer, so maybe it is thanks to him and his example that I am in this field in the first place. And of course my dad is proud as I am already a little above his expectations.
Olga: I have a very specific person on mind, and it’s my mom. In a sense, by working in Digital Health I make a great combination of my parents’ fields, because my mom is a medical doctor and my dad is an engineer. My mom has always been a very career-oriented person, who has moved from a small town to the capital of Ukraine, developed herself professionally and even worked with the Ministry of Health of Ukraine. She made it onto that way by herself and she made me believe that I can achieve what I will set out for myself. When I moved to Estonia four years ago she was motivating me that it was going to be fine and that I can make it, she was supporting me through my studies. She is a big inspiration for me.
What are your plans for future?
Karolina: I have three more years to finish my PhD but I already know that even afterwards I will certainly continue working in academia, as well as supporting women in the field. I am a very open-minded person and I find that academia is a really good place in terms of freedom and an opportunity to concentrate on the research.
Olga: Currently I am combining the research (also with three more years to go) and entrepreneurship — my business projects outside the university, and I would like to continue this way. I think this combination of research and practical experience really motivates me to proceed. Thus, while I am working on my research I can relax on the business activities and vice versa. I really like this balance and I hope to keep it.
What would you advise to those aiming at academic career?
Karolina: If you like to be in academia and you like your research, if it is what makes you happy and what feels like your place in life continue with it. Just do it. And if someone tells it is not for you remember that the ultimate decision is always and only on you.
Olga: If you are really interested in your topic you will stay motivated. Make sure to have this strong interest because you will have to stick with your topic for at least four years. You need to be a big fan of your research to such an extent that when you wake up in the morning you feel this urge to work. Of course, there will be some difficult moments along your way when it is helpful to keep your bigger goal in mind.
I am a big fan of everything I’m doing, and when I wake up in the morning the thoughts of work ahead make me happy. I find it very motivating to see the results of my work, my published articles. At the same time, I believe in balance and the fact one has to take time to relax and not to overwork oneself.
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